Rebuild or...

Discussion of MEL engine related topics only.
josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Tue 1. Mar 2011, 18:15

Oh...oh my.
Keithol, you just reminded me that I've actually had this exact same situation before...only on a 225 slant six in my '64 Dart. It was ages ago, and I was so fixated on the fact that the 430 is a rather peculiar engine nestled in a car that I have a great emotional attachment to, that I just...well, somehow forgot about it. That time I only had one bent valve, but it was super easy to just take the plugs out of the slant six and turn the engine with a breaker bar on the crank. It'll be a bit harder to do in the Linc considering the hood placement and the extra yardage involved, but it still should be a rather "quick" way to test and see if there is slack, or if it has jumped. And, of course, it makes complete sense that a jumped chain would be the cause of all these calamities.

Sometimes it just takes someone to remind you of the obvious, I suppose.

Thanks very much, you guys. I will try to get out tomorrow and check it out and report back.

-josh

josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Tue 12. Apr 2011, 19:57

Okay, I've decided not to just do a quick repair. Instead I'm going to take it out and start a proper rebuild. Someone has offered to give me a strong running 58 410 to put in the car for the time being, but I have no idea if the 64 transmission will bolt onto it. I know that the transmission bell housings changed between 58 and 64, but from what I've read I can't tell if this means that the engine blocks changed as well to allow the different starter location. Someone want to enlighten me?

Thanks,
Josh

josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Thu 14. Apr 2011, 22:16

I keep reading posts about transmission changes, and I think I may have something of a clue now. It seems that the block itself was changed in order to accommodate different transmissions, right? And because of that the early 58 MEL block will NOT accept the 64 LINC transmission...correct? AND since the earlier FE bolt pattern transmission has the starter location in the wrong place, even if I had the engine and trans from a 58, it still wouldn't fit into my car, yes? (I'm assuming that this would be true even if you swapped out the flex plate used with the early FE trans and used a mini starter).

OR...I just now realized, all the MEL blocks (early, mid, and late) will accept the LINC trans with the lower starter mount, but the mid years exception is that they will not allow for the FE pattern trans because there is a bit of block material blocking the top area of the higher starter location.

Perhaps you can tell that I've been studying for exams for the last few days. I just can't seem to get it pictured in my mind properly. So far the only illustrations I've found are in the thread about bell housings where the early and dual pattern were compared, and I've tried my best to figure out where my particular combination fits in.

I apologize for my ignorance, I've not been involved with this type of problem before, and the more I read over my ramblings here, the more fried my brain appears to be at the moment. Sorry guys!

Thanks,
Josh

reijerlincoln
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by reijerlincoln » Tue 19. Apr 2011, 02:48

Josh, I think you're making your life harder than it needs to be by going down this route of swapping motors. It's a can of worms.

Have you checked out the state of you motor in the manner suggested in previous posts? If not, do so. Then you'll know what problems you face. Doing a full rebuild - if needed - of your original motor will cost you serious money. Or you could repair what's needed and leave it at that. Or find a replacement, running 1964 or 1965 MEL 430. They might not be as easy to find as Chevy small-blocks but they are out there. I see running examples advertised on a regular basis on another internet forum.

Oh, a 1966 MEL 462 will also fit you '64 Continental (as it does mine).

Cheers,
Reijer

josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Tue 19. Apr 2011, 04:43

Reijer,

You, with your logic and reason...

Someone actually tried to convince me to put in a small block not too long ago. I didn't slap them, but the thought did cross my mind. Not that I don't think that it would be able to move the car along, but it would be rather slow and completely sacrilegious.

I was sort of excited by the prospect of the 410 just because of it's slightly higher hp, and the fact that the stamped valve covers and green/white livery would look pretty sweet in engine bay of a glossy black '64 linc. (who's sacrilegious now?) And, honestly, I've been looking for some time and have yet to find another MEL of any sort close to my area. The 410 is 4 hours away and that's been the best so far. 2 hours from here there is a '64 parts car, but the drive train appears to be suspect.

As far as my engine is concerned: I know that the timing chain is off at least a couple of teeth, and that's about all I can check without taking the heads off. Compression, if I could test it at all, wouldn't tell me much but consistency without the valves being closed when they are supposed to be, so that's out. The best case scenario is that I could just swap the timing set and be on my way, but I haven't fathomed how to do that without taking the engine out. Perhaps someone could clarify that for me. I mean, if there is a relatively simple way to do it without removing the engine, I'd be all for it. Ha, should probably hunt around for my factory service manual actually find out for myself!

Anyway, if the 410 is a no go, then I will just make due. If someone could tell me for sure that it is viable, then that would allow me to take my time with my 430 and properly refresh or rebuild it. I think that a new timing set, oil pump, fresh gaskets, etc wouldn't hurt no matter what the pistons and valve train currently look like.

Perhaps I should just get on with it and see what I can actually accomplish. Otherwise I run the risk of a far worse catastrophe: not driving my car for even longer.

Thanks,
Josh

keithol
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by keithol » Tue 19. Apr 2011, 06:22

Josh, I have never done it on a lincoln, but timing chain replacement used to be a commonplace job for me over the years. I have never had to pull an engine to replace a timing chain. Just follow your manual ,you will be fine. If you haven't bent any valves you may run for many miles without having to do more. Best of luck, Keith

reijerlincoln
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by reijerlincoln » Tue 19. Apr 2011, 06:34

Josh, getting your MEL 430 to run properly isn't making due. 8-)

My suggestion is to keep the motor in the car and perform some preventative replacing of parts.
1 replace the timing set,
2 replace oil pump & oil pump drive shaft,
3 pull the heads & intake to check/replace the hydraulic lifters & push rods, and also check to see if the valves aren't stuck.

Have a full gasket set at hand from Best Gaskets - other supplier sets lack the timing cover gasket. Do a bit of reading up on things like pulling pullies and putting them back on... that way you'll know what you're up against, do's and don'ts, tools/materials needed etc.


1. To replace the timing set (with a set from Cloyes) you need to remove the crank pully, water pump, power steering pump, cooling fan & fan shroud (if AC car) and timing cover. The radiator can stay, just loosen the bottom bolts and slide it towards the grill. You will need a pulley puller.

With the water pump removed, check if the two little bronze block thermostats are still installed. If so - remove and do not replace. The two water diverters next to them - in the two most outside holes - do need to be installed and in good condition.

Good time to replace the front engine oil seal. Glue it in place. Mine wasn't. The PS pump pushed it inwards enough for the oil slinger plate to grab and eat it. Causing an oil spill during break-in of my lovely rebuilt motor.

... while you are down there/with all these parts removed....

2. A Melling high volume (not high pressure) oil pump is a nice upgrade. You'll need to lift the engine two inches: undo motor mounts & tranny mounts, lift motor, punt two block of wood between the motor and 'frame', lower the motor. Now undo the oil pan bolts. The oil pump pickup will also have to be taken off before the pan will come out. loosen the two pump bolts, let the pump and bolts fall into the pan, then remove the pan. Putting it back is tougher. You have to put the pump in the pan, maneuver the pan into place, reach into the pan and grab the pump and reconnect it to the block. Then you can connect the pan. Getting the oil pump shaft in is a bitch as it won't it from the top (through the distributor opening) because of the funny washer.

Replace your original oil pump drive shaft with this billet drive shaft from Precision Oil Pumps in Ca, (559)325-3553. The original is literally as thin as a pencil and really isn't up to the job. This replacement works for the MEL engines. It is an FE drive that is +.0375" Longer for Main Girdle Applications. This shaft is about .075 too long, but the MEL guys get them and grind that amount off the bottom (pump end) to make them fit. Just use a bench grinder. The shafts are $20.00 plus shipping. http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_im ... 0_full.jpg

3. Sorry... no experience there.

After thoughts:
when everything is back together, but before starting the motor, you need to make sure there's enough ATF in the PS system to prevent the PS pump from running dry. With the front end off the ground & the lid removed from the PS reservoir - turn the steering wheel full lock from left to right one time. You'll see bubbles appear & fluid disappear. Refill the reservoir. Repeat until no more bubbles appear. Refit the lid & top up the PS fluid. When the motor is running, do what the manual tells you to do (same principle).

One more thing; you need to make sure no air is trapped in the cooling system. Air pockets do not cool the engine. So have the rear of the car sit lower than the front when you fill the cooling system. Also make sure to turn your heater on & off while the motor is running/warming up.

Cheers,
Reijer

josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Tue 19. Apr 2011, 16:21

Wow. You are my new hero. Thank you very, very much.
Time to order parts.

reijerlincoln
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by reijerlincoln » Wed 20. Apr 2011, 00:18

You're welcome.

Indeed, follow the manual. Take your time to prepare yourself for the job at hand and expect things to sometimes go wrong. Also, I've written down a lot of things/problems I encountered during my rebuild in my cardomain 'diary'. The link is posted below.

Do you have a friendly mechanic or a mechanically savvy friend living close by? Lure them into your garage with beer and snacks.

josh
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Re: Rebuild or...

Post by josh » Wed 20. Apr 2011, 10:51

Heh, contrary to the generally anxious mood of my posts here, I am not completely useless when it comes to cars or mechanics in general. I'm simply very cautious when it comes to working on this particular car. It really is THE car I've always wanted to own, and that combined with sketchy parts availability...I dunno. To another person it's as if they saved up and finally bought the 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO that they always dreamed about, and then had to take bits of it apart for the first time. I also own or have owned a '64 Dart, '65 Thunderbird, 67 Corvair, and a '76 BMW 2002, and have never flinched when it came to doing anything to them. Somehow this one is different. It has nothing to do with expense, or experience, just...well, my love for the car. One of my friends finds this to be quite odd, and has joked that I should just recuse myself like an ER surgeon who finds their child on the operating table in front of them. But I digress...

And, honestly, I always lure someone over with beer. Working on cars is usually much easier and more fun when you've got company, right?

Anyway, thank you very much. Having someone who owns the same car explain everything in such detail that it allows me to picture all of the necessary work and some of the major pitfalls has alleviated most of my anxiety.

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