Re: Chris Craft 430ies

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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Theo » Thu 19. Nov 2009, 14:25

Yeah, I would also like to know a few things.

1. How long is the rocker arm shaft in length?

2. Peter, can you remember in which direction the head gaskets were installed? Can you give us a close shot that shows which direction and which side of the gasket was installed on the block. (Water passages)

3. Can we see a close photo of the transmission bolt pattern?
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Thu 19. Nov 2009, 18:30

I will post some more pics... as the engine has to come completely apart. This engine was rebuilt with .020 pistons, but they are flat tops, from either Egge, or Kanter. I plan on changing them to .030 Wiseco like the ones Shelby showed us. I will be sure to keep the forum updated. I don't see why the timing set would not work, but as usual, the marine engine is my area, and not the car.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Theo » Fri 20. Nov 2009, 02:58

Chris Craft crazy wrote: I plan on changing them to .030 Wiseco like the ones Shelby showed us.
Make sure to closely collaborate with the engine rebuilder. Do not just refer to the dimensions on Shelby's piston sheet. Exact measuremets of YOUR block must be taken. Especially the dimensions of the block height AFTER the milling process.

Are you planning to bore the block? If you do, then keep in mind that boring needs to be done according to the pistons. The mashine shop will have to bore each single bore according to the dimensions of each single (in your case) WISECO piston.

In short:

1. Milling the block (if needed)

2. Making decisions on what oversize bore can be done

3. Ordering pistons according to your block's dimensions.

4. After arrival of the pistons, taking measurements of those and boring the block according to each individual piston (mark one to eight)
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Fri 20. Nov 2009, 13:20

A top mill on this engine should not be required, but it's interesting to hear that individual fitting of each piston should take place. I would have thought that normally the Wiseco piston is going to be the same in diameter, and that deck height calculations could be used throughout the 8 cylinders. I understand the expansion/piston size difference or allowable difference between cylinder wall and piston, but thought that other than race engines, a normal figure could be used.
I will talk to Brian Nutter at Wiseco before I order. I am also considering a cam for this engine, as well as tripower, but I haven't been able to determine a good cam grind for a marine version...yet. This engine with the marine transmission would only spin about 3800 rpm or so, maybe 4000 max, but at that point I will have to look at some balancing issues as well.

All in all, I think I want a shop that can bore and assemble the short block at least. I could also consider doing the downsize on the rod journal to BBC and resize the rods and buy Chev bb pistons. I need to look at the cost differences all around.
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Theo » Sat 21. Nov 2009, 11:42

Chris Craft crazy wrote:A top mill on this engine should not be required, but it's interesting to hear that individual fitting of each piston should take place......
Yes, that's a standart procedure these days. If the mashine shop doesn't offer it as a standart procedure, then simply look for an other competent mashine shop.
Chris Craft crazy wrote: ........I would have thought that normally the Wiseco piston is going to be the same in diameter, and that deck height calculations could be used throughout the 8 cylinders.
Every block is different. They have their own history of pre owners and re-builders. You never know what has been done to the block previously. The dimensions vary from one block or cylinder head to an other.
Let the machinist do exact measurements, so he can determine YOUR block's block height. Never assume that your block is similar to one other guys block. Try to find a machine shop that is knowledgeable as how to blueprint engines. Ask them if they do use BHJ fixtures. Only blueprinted engines are true. Consequently custom made pistons that refer to your trued block will fit through out the bank.
Again, get he block done first, then order according to the block dimensions. Getting the block done right includes various procedures. Most important basic machining in your case would be the "Block True" and "Bore True" process. Then a thorough determination of the cylinder wall thickness and the possible cylinder over bore diameter will determine the piston diameter to be ordered.
Let the machine shop do the first step, which is boring the block, The second step, which is the final honing to size should be done after the pistons have arrived and measured individually by your machinist.
Cast pistons have a much wider spread of diameter differences than forged slugs, but there is always inconsistency, no matter what brand or material. A good machinist is familiar with that.
But it doesn't hurt to talk to the machinist. I have met machinists and machinists. So be allert. We're not talking about a widely awailable Ch##vy block here.
You might ask what sense it does to bore the block in a first step and then final hone to size in a second step after the pistons arrived and measured.
Well, the first reason is obvious as each piston has to be measured indibidually. The second important reason is to make sure that none of the cylinder walls won't crack during the boring process. This is important especially if the cylinder walls have not been sonic tested and when a large oversize step is targeted. But a machinist's worst enemy is core shift.
A good machine shop will have a sonic tester. I purchased my own to be independant and also to have the freedom to check blocks before I purchase them. Take a look here viewtopic.php?f=94&t=323
Chris Craft crazy wrote: I understand the expansion/piston size difference or allowable difference between cylinder wall and piston, but thought that other than race engines, a normal figure could be used.
No Sir, there ain't no normal figures. Each piston type or brand comes with its' own specs. sheet. For instance a box with hypereutectic pistons will read different clearance numbers on its' specs. sheet than what you will find in a box of cast or forged pistons.
Chris Craft crazy wrote: I will talk to Brian Nutter at Wiseco before I order. I am also considering a cam for this engine, as well as tripower, but I haven't been able to determine a good cam grind for a marine version...yet.
Well, you're mentioning an important aspect in regard to the pistons you're going to order. If you look at the piston ordering sheet you will see the line where you're asked about the cam you're going to use. You'll be asked about duration, lift figures intake center line and much more.
These informations are important for the piston manufacturer in order to calculate valve pockets, piston height, pin position and compression.
Make sure to decide on the cam before you place an order.
Chris Craft crazy wrote:This engine with the marine transmission would only spin about 3800 rpm or so, maybe 4000 max, but at that point I will have to look at some balancing issues as well.
The cam is not part of the balancing math.
That's a crank, rod, rings, pin, locks, and piston thing only, In your marine app. also the drive coupler will be needed by the balancer I guess.
Chris Craft crazy wrote:All in all, I think I want a shop that can bore and assemble the short block at least. I could also consider doing the downsize on the rod journal to BBC and resize the rods and buy Chev bb pistons. I need to look at the cost differences all around.
Machine shops are not always the best place to get your motor assembled. Make sure to find a competent engine rebuilder who at least knows Ford engines or preferably has a good understanding of MEL engines.

Also make sure that the sales rep at the pistom manufacturer understands that you're talking about a MEL piston. Many are just GM focused and easily confuse things once in a while.

Good luck with your project and please keep in touch.
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Sun 29. Nov 2009, 15:28

So here we go again... some shots of the block, just for those of you who have not torn down your 430
004-1.jpg
005-2.jpg
This is the flex assembly on the marine engine, it is inside the machined housing on the timing gear end of the crank..
006-3.jpg
Rods and pistons, which in this case are Egge flatties, .020 over. They are being replaced.
007-4.jpg
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Sun 29. Nov 2009, 15:32

Here is a bad thing... on the housing that holds the fuel rod, instead of finding the right fuel rod, they chopped off the tab on the housing, and inserted a rod that has a circlip sort of end, then had to weld the tab back on. Wrong. :evil:
010-16.jpg
This housing is on the timing end, and incorporates a couple of the cooling galleys.... and also forms the timing cover seal
018.jpg
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Sun 29. Nov 2009, 15:50

This is the flywheel housing. It is cast aluminum, and like the 'back' housing, I am going to polish it. I have started to take the casting marks and scrapes out of it.
014.jpg
This is one of two solid bronze cast oil coolers, one for the transmission fluid, the other for oil. They interrupt the fresh water line, so they get a massive amount of cooling for such a small cooler. Made by the Gass mechanical corp, Baltimore.
015.jpg
016.jpg
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Sun 29. Nov 2009, 15:55

The Head gaskets install the same way as on the car block, but cooling elbows are incorporated into the timing cover/engine leg housing that is on the rear of the marine installation....
011-2.jpg
This is a transmission, which forms the final seal around the timing gear end of the motor.
013-12.jpg
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Re: Chris Craft 430's

Post by Chris Craft crazy » Mon 7. Dec 2009, 13:42

Well, my block has been cleaned back up... it is now almost 40 thou over, we left 3 thou for final hone and fitting...

I am going to media blast the exhaust manifolds, and the rear cover, and the coolers this week at a friends shop... glass bead.

Here is the front cover... and my latest purchase the marauder tripower intake

Image

Image
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