Forgot The FORD Line
1959/1960 THUNDERBIRD 430/350HP
What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model / yea
Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Brief Rundown of MEL Engine Series
Ford MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) Engine Series
In 1958, came the introduction of the MEL series engines. These were some of the largest and heaviest V8 engines Ford had ever built.
* 383 cubic inch
Developed for the Mercury line of vehicles.
Bore and stroke of 4.30 X 3.30 inches.
Had a two year history starting in 1958 and lasting till 1960
Most of these engines in the two years were known as the Marauder
The Mercury Marauder engines of 1958 came with either 312 horsepower or 330 horsepower, both packed with a four barrel carburator.
In 1959, the Marauder engine was considered a mid range of its' predecessor with a stock horsepower of 322.
In its' last year, the 383 cubic inch Marauder was dropped to 280 horsepower.
* 410 cubic inch
Less common of the MEL series is the 410 cubic inch
Bore and Stroke of 4.20 X 3.70
10.5.1 compression
Holley four-barrel carb and hydraulic lifters.
475 pounds of foot torque
Also be reffered to as the E-475 engine.
In 1958, Edsel Corsair and Citation models used the 410 cubic inch as their only preference for engine types.
* 430 cubic inch
Commonly referred to as the Bulldozer of the MEL series and lasted from 1958 to 1965
In its' "suped up" version, the 430 was commonly referred to as the Super Marauder and came with three two barrel carburators.
Bore and stroke of 4.29 X 3.7 inches
Compression rations started at 10.5.1 but soon began to decline late in 1959 to 10.0.1 at 350 horsepower.
The higher horsepower versions of the 430 remained within its first year of production with horsepower of 365, 375 and of course 400.
In 1959 the horsepower slowly began to reduce, yet hold a moderate 345 ponies even with a slightly less compression ratio of 10.0.1.
In 1960, the big 430 cubic inch used a milder camshaft, producing 315 horsepower.
1963 when the 430 got an overhaul with new pistons and a four barrel carb, pushing compression to 10.1.1 and a horsepower rating of about 345.
It could be found in the 1958 Lincoln Continental Convertible, rating 400 horsepower and nearly 500 foot pounds of torque.
Mercury also used the 430 cubic inch until 1960.
* 462 cubic inch
By 1966, it replaced its' predecessor the 430.
Bore and stroke of 4.38 X 3.83 inches.
Hydraulic lifters and a four barrel carb.
The 462 was used for its' smoothness in large passenger vehicles.
It lasted for only two years.
From;
http://www.fordclassics.com/enginespecs.html
Ford MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) Engine Series
In 1958, came the introduction of the MEL series engines. These were some of the largest and heaviest V8 engines Ford had ever built.
* 383 cubic inch
Developed for the Mercury line of vehicles.
Bore and stroke of 4.30 X 3.30 inches.
Had a two year history starting in 1958 and lasting till 1960
Most of these engines in the two years were known as the Marauder
The Mercury Marauder engines of 1958 came with either 312 horsepower or 330 horsepower, both packed with a four barrel carburator.
In 1959, the Marauder engine was considered a mid range of its' predecessor with a stock horsepower of 322.
In its' last year, the 383 cubic inch Marauder was dropped to 280 horsepower.
* 410 cubic inch
Less common of the MEL series is the 410 cubic inch
Bore and Stroke of 4.20 X 3.70
10.5.1 compression
Holley four-barrel carb and hydraulic lifters.
475 pounds of foot torque
Also be reffered to as the E-475 engine.
In 1958, Edsel Corsair and Citation models used the 410 cubic inch as their only preference for engine types.
* 430 cubic inch
Commonly referred to as the Bulldozer of the MEL series and lasted from 1958 to 1965
In its' "suped up" version, the 430 was commonly referred to as the Super Marauder and came with three two barrel carburators.
Bore and stroke of 4.29 X 3.7 inches
Compression rations started at 10.5.1 but soon began to decline late in 1959 to 10.0.1 at 350 horsepower.
The higher horsepower versions of the 430 remained within its first year of production with horsepower of 365, 375 and of course 400.
In 1959 the horsepower slowly began to reduce, yet hold a moderate 345 ponies even with a slightly less compression ratio of 10.0.1.
In 1960, the big 430 cubic inch used a milder camshaft, producing 315 horsepower.
1963 when the 430 got an overhaul with new pistons and a four barrel carb, pushing compression to 10.1.1 and a horsepower rating of about 345.
It could be found in the 1958 Lincoln Continental Convertible, rating 400 horsepower and nearly 500 foot pounds of torque.
Mercury also used the 430 cubic inch until 1960.
* 462 cubic inch
By 1966, it replaced its' predecessor the 430.
Bore and stroke of 4.38 X 3.83 inches.
Hydraulic lifters and a four barrel carb.
The 462 was used for its' smoothness in large passenger vehicles.
It lasted for only two years.
From;
http://www.fordclassics.com/enginespecs.html
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Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Response by "Jim"
Incorrect information
The application of the "Marauder" designation only applied to 383 and 430 cubic inch Mercury automobiles. The site referred to in the post has taken information from a Motor's Repair Manual and missinterpreted with respect to a 312 hp version of the MEL block in '58 Mercury production. All 383's were 330 hp. The 312 reference in the Motor's manual recognized the 312 "Y" block as a base engine offered in Metalist models only (a very striped down basic version of the '58 Mercury). Very few Metalist models were produced and a '58 Merc with a 312 "Y" block would indeed be a rare, but worthless, item today if any have survived.
Incorrect information
The application of the "Marauder" designation only applied to 383 and 430 cubic inch Mercury automobiles. The site referred to in the post has taken information from a Motor's Repair Manual and missinterpreted with respect to a 312 hp version of the MEL block in '58 Mercury production. All 383's were 330 hp. The 312 reference in the Motor's manual recognized the 312 "Y" block as a base engine offered in Metalist models only (a very striped down basic version of the '58 Mercury). Very few Metalist models were produced and a '58 Merc with a 312 "Y" block would indeed be a rare, but worthless, item today if any have survived.
Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
I Have Reference For Two 383's For 1958
There were two 383 MARAUDER engines in 1958.
The first was the MONTEREY 312HP@4600RPM
The second was the MONTCLAIR 330HP@4800RPM
The MEDALIST was a 312 (Y-Block) rated 235HP@4600RPM
I suppose the two ratings were offered for the two different trim levels, much as the EDSEL E-400 (FE) was installed in the one based on the FORD platform and the E-475 installed in the one based on the MERCURY platform.
The Marauder 430 was installed in the PARK LANE and later the TURNPIKE CRUISER.
There were two 383 MARAUDER engines in 1958.
The first was the MONTEREY 312HP@4600RPM
The second was the MONTCLAIR 330HP@4800RPM
The MEDALIST was a 312 (Y-Block) rated 235HP@4600RPM
I suppose the two ratings were offered for the two different trim levels, much as the EDSEL E-400 (FE) was installed in the one based on the FORD platform and the E-475 installed in the one based on the MERCURY platform.
The Marauder 430 was installed in the PARK LANE and later the TURNPIKE CRUISER.
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Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Response by an unknown participant "Anonymous"
'58 383 rated at 312 hp
No score for this post August 6 2003, 10:32 PM
If anyone has an official publicaton from the MEL Division of Ford Motor Company that reflects a 312 hp 383 I'd sure like to know its publication date. I have every official manual published by the MEL Division in 1957 and 1958 covering '58 Mercs and Lincolns along with about a foot high stack of service bulletins that cover 383 and 430 MEL engines and engine specifications. Absolutely no where is there even a hint of a reference to a 312 hp version of the 383 engine.
As I said in my original post I am familiar, in fact have two, Motor's Auto Repair Manuals (one dated 1962 and another dated 1965) which indicate a 312 something was put in a '58 Merc. Whatever they were referring to accurately or inaccurately was not a 312 hp MEL block engine.
About the only way a 383 with a 4.300 bore and 3.200 stroke might be reduced by a scant 18 hp to 312 hp would be to change the carburetor to a 2bbl which would make no sense on an engine with 10.5:1 compression (yeah, I know in some references the compression for a 383 is shown to be 10.0:1). Not even the MEL Division could make up its mind on the published compression of a 383 for the few years it was produced.
No 2bbl was ever placed on any MEL block used in a '58 Mercury. They all got a Holley List #1849 4bbl, single metering block and power valve, and vacuum secondary; identified by Ford as Ford type 4150, a generic sort of thing with Ford identifying certain types of 4bbl carbs. First those made by Holley and in more recent years even Autolite and Motorcraft 4bbl carbs got the 4150 designation.
'58 383 rated at 312 hp
No score for this post August 6 2003, 10:32 PM
If anyone has an official publicaton from the MEL Division of Ford Motor Company that reflects a 312 hp 383 I'd sure like to know its publication date. I have every official manual published by the MEL Division in 1957 and 1958 covering '58 Mercs and Lincolns along with about a foot high stack of service bulletins that cover 383 and 430 MEL engines and engine specifications. Absolutely no where is there even a hint of a reference to a 312 hp version of the 383 engine.
As I said in my original post I am familiar, in fact have two, Motor's Auto Repair Manuals (one dated 1962 and another dated 1965) which indicate a 312 something was put in a '58 Merc. Whatever they were referring to accurately or inaccurately was not a 312 hp MEL block engine.
About the only way a 383 with a 4.300 bore and 3.200 stroke might be reduced by a scant 18 hp to 312 hp would be to change the carburetor to a 2bbl which would make no sense on an engine with 10.5:1 compression (yeah, I know in some references the compression for a 383 is shown to be 10.0:1). Not even the MEL Division could make up its mind on the published compression of a 383 for the few years it was produced.
No 2bbl was ever placed on any MEL block used in a '58 Mercury. They all got a Holley List #1849 4bbl, single metering block and power valve, and vacuum secondary; identified by Ford as Ford type 4150, a generic sort of thing with Ford identifying certain types of 4bbl carbs. First those made by Holley and in more recent years even Autolite and Motorcraft 4bbl carbs got the 4150 designation.
Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Two HP Ratings For 1958 383 EDG MERCURY
Engine Description 383 cu. in. EDG
The MARAUDER engines for MONTEREY and MONTCLAIR series vehicles are an eight cylinder valve-in-head ninety degree "V" -type which has a displacement of 383 cubic inches using a 4.300" bore and 33300" stroke. The compression ratio is 10.0 to 1.
The above is from the 1958 MERCURY Maintenance Manual. Where the two different ratings are described is found within the FUEL section of the manual. The cylinder heads, pistons and camshaft appear to be the same for both (one would have to review parts literature to ascertain a difference here).
It goes onto say in the FUEL section (and I stumbled across this by accident);
CARB 4100
The letters EDG A or EDG B are stamped on the left side of the main body near the accelerator pump. EDG A identifies the FORD carburetor to be used with the 383ci engine (Low Torque) and automatic transmission. EDG B identifies the FORD carburetor to be used with the 383 ci engine (High Torque) and automatic transmission.
Low Torque Venturi Size
Primary 1 1/16" Secondary 1 3/16"
Main Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #50
Secondary Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #66
High Torque Venturi Size
Primary 1 3/16" Secondary 1 1/4"
Main Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #58
Secondary Metering Jet 0-5000ft #67
It goes on to give the calibration of the short bowl HOLLEY's also used that year. Again a smaller one for the Low Torque engine, a larger one for the High Torque engine and a even larger for the 430 EDJ engine.
So, the two different 383 ratings are determined by carburetor size and which series they were installed in.
Engine Description 383 cu. in. EDG
The MARAUDER engines for MONTEREY and MONTCLAIR series vehicles are an eight cylinder valve-in-head ninety degree "V" -type which has a displacement of 383 cubic inches using a 4.300" bore and 33300" stroke. The compression ratio is 10.0 to 1.
The above is from the 1958 MERCURY Maintenance Manual. Where the two different ratings are described is found within the FUEL section of the manual. The cylinder heads, pistons and camshaft appear to be the same for both (one would have to review parts literature to ascertain a difference here).
It goes onto say in the FUEL section (and I stumbled across this by accident);
CARB 4100
The letters EDG A or EDG B are stamped on the left side of the main body near the accelerator pump. EDG A identifies the FORD carburetor to be used with the 383ci engine (Low Torque) and automatic transmission. EDG B identifies the FORD carburetor to be used with the 383 ci engine (High Torque) and automatic transmission.
Low Torque Venturi Size
Primary 1 1/16" Secondary 1 3/16"
Main Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #50
Secondary Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #66
High Torque Venturi Size
Primary 1 3/16" Secondary 1 1/4"
Main Metering Jet Identification 0-5000ft #58
Secondary Metering Jet 0-5000ft #67
It goes on to give the calibration of the short bowl HOLLEY's also used that year. Again a smaller one for the Low Torque engine, a larger one for the High Torque engine and a even larger for the 430 EDJ engine.
So, the two different 383 ratings are determined by carburetor size and which series they were installed in.
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Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Response by "58mercmaniac"
If you look at the rpm at which the hp ratings were claimed you will see the 312 hp rating is at 200 rpm less. Enough rpm reduction in the HP curve to make a 330 hp 383 look like a 312 hp 383. However, I have no official service manual or service bulletin publication from the MEL Division that makes any reference to any 312 hp version of a 383. Maybe sales lit might indicate a 312 hp version, but not the manuals.
They played virtually the same game with the 430 by giving it a 360 hp rating in a Mercury at a test rpm lower than Lincoln which was rated at 375 hp. Yet one cannot find one shread of actual specification difference that would lead to a reason for a true difference in the hp rating between the two applications.
In the case of the 430's differences the exhaust manifolds used on the Merc verses the Lincoln should have given the Merc version a higher hp rating. The Merc manifolds were big collector type with a center flange for connecting to the exhaust pipe whereas Lincolns had a more restrictive straight out the back manifold.
Yep, a lot of "specmanship" was going on. Probably at the hands of the sales/marketing group who apparently failed to tell engineering there was more than one hp rating for the 383 and 430.
If you look at the rpm at which the hp ratings were claimed you will see the 312 hp rating is at 200 rpm less. Enough rpm reduction in the HP curve to make a 330 hp 383 look like a 312 hp 383. However, I have no official service manual or service bulletin publication from the MEL Division that makes any reference to any 312 hp version of a 383. Maybe sales lit might indicate a 312 hp version, but not the manuals.
They played virtually the same game with the 430 by giving it a 360 hp rating in a Mercury at a test rpm lower than Lincoln which was rated at 375 hp. Yet one cannot find one shread of actual specification difference that would lead to a reason for a true difference in the hp rating between the two applications.
In the case of the 430's differences the exhaust manifolds used on the Merc verses the Lincoln should have given the Merc version a higher hp rating. The Merc manifolds were big collector type with a center flange for connecting to the exhaust pipe whereas Lincolns had a more restrictive straight out the back manifold.
Yep, a lot of "specmanship" was going on. Probably at the hands of the sales/marketing group who apparently failed to tell engineering there was more than one hp rating for the 383 and 430.
Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Advertised Horsepower
"If you look at the rpm at which the hp ratings were claimed you will see the 312 hp rating is at 200 rpm less. Enough rpm reduction in the HP curve to make a 330 hp 383 look like a 312 hp 383."
I think you may have the answer here. The 430 had different HP ratings between LINC, MERC and FORD applications, even though the J code BIRD engine came off the same assembly line as the LINCOLN.
I have a 1958 MERCURY ADVANCE MAINTENACE MANUAL (Oct. 57) that states in the engine(s) descriptions;
"The Marauder engine for Monterey and Montclair" and goes on to describe further the specs on the 383.
I also have a 1958 MERCURY MAINTENACE MANUAL (Jul 58) that states;
"The MARAUDER engines for Monterey and Montclair..." and goes on to describe further the specs on the 383.
Were there actually two different ratings offered as to impress the new car buyer when he bought a fancier MERCURY or was it just a gimmick by taking the HP rating at different RPM's?
If the differences (if any) weren't mentioned in any service literature and/or bulletins, then a search in the MASTER PARTS CATALOG and sales material of the period may answer the question.
"If you look at the rpm at which the hp ratings were claimed you will see the 312 hp rating is at 200 rpm less. Enough rpm reduction in the HP curve to make a 330 hp 383 look like a 312 hp 383."
I think you may have the answer here. The 430 had different HP ratings between LINC, MERC and FORD applications, even though the J code BIRD engine came off the same assembly line as the LINCOLN.
I have a 1958 MERCURY ADVANCE MAINTENACE MANUAL (Oct. 57) that states in the engine(s) descriptions;
"The Marauder engine for Monterey and Montclair" and goes on to describe further the specs on the 383.
I also have a 1958 MERCURY MAINTENACE MANUAL (Jul 58) that states;
"The MARAUDER engines for Monterey and Montclair..." and goes on to describe further the specs on the 383.
Were there actually two different ratings offered as to impress the new car buyer when he bought a fancier MERCURY or was it just a gimmick by taking the HP rating at different RPM's?
If the differences (if any) weren't mentioned in any service literature and/or bulletins, then a search in the MASTER PARTS CATALOG and sales material of the period may answer the question.
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Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
Response by "Jim"
Cars that were produced with MEL Blocks
The MEL block, introduced in the 1958 model year was used in four brands of vehicles.
Mercury '58-'60, 383 c.i., 430 c.i. (were called Marauder engines. A 400 hp 3X2 version of the 430 was called "Super Marauder."
383 engines were painted metallic silver and sported off red valve covers and breather.
430 engines were painted metallic gold, valve covers and breather were painted off red.
430 Super Marauder engines were painted dark charcoal gray and sported billit aluminum valve covers and breather. (some were apprently produced with common stamped metal valve covers which were painted off red)
Edsel '58 - Citation & Corsair models only, 410 c.i. (Was called E-475 engine, Don't think anyone knows why as E-475 had no relationship to displacement, horsepower, or torque.
Someone with an E-475 is going to need to define correct color, I have personally seen more than one color scheme for the block and valve covers on stock engines.
Lincoln '58 -'66, 430 c.i. Only thing notible in identity is the absence of any kind of script on valve covers.
'58 thru '60 engines were painted a metallic green. Valve covers and breather was black.
'61 to 65 engines were painted Ford Blue
Lincoln '68 to 68, 462 c.i., engines were painted Ford Dark Blue.
It is noted that in the '60s carburation bounced back an forth between 2bbl and 4bbl versions, depeding upon production year. In no year were both carburetor types offered.
Thunderbird '59 - '60, 430 c.i., sometimes called "J" code engines, but has a different definition than the "J" used with FE and Cleveland blocks in the late 1960's and early 1970's. This is a very rare version of the Thunderbird with fewer than 800 produced in 1960, not sure about number produced in 1959.
Cars that were produced with MEL Blocks
The MEL block, introduced in the 1958 model year was used in four brands of vehicles.
Mercury '58-'60, 383 c.i., 430 c.i. (were called Marauder engines. A 400 hp 3X2 version of the 430 was called "Super Marauder."
383 engines were painted metallic silver and sported off red valve covers and breather.
430 engines were painted metallic gold, valve covers and breather were painted off red.
430 Super Marauder engines were painted dark charcoal gray and sported billit aluminum valve covers and breather. (some were apprently produced with common stamped metal valve covers which were painted off red)
Edsel '58 - Citation & Corsair models only, 410 c.i. (Was called E-475 engine, Don't think anyone knows why as E-475 had no relationship to displacement, horsepower, or torque.
Someone with an E-475 is going to need to define correct color, I have personally seen more than one color scheme for the block and valve covers on stock engines.
Lincoln '58 -'66, 430 c.i. Only thing notible in identity is the absence of any kind of script on valve covers.
'58 thru '60 engines were painted a metallic green. Valve covers and breather was black.
'61 to 65 engines were painted Ford Blue
Lincoln '68 to 68, 462 c.i., engines were painted Ford Dark Blue.
It is noted that in the '60s carburation bounced back an forth between 2bbl and 4bbl versions, depeding upon production year. In no year were both carburetor types offered.
Thunderbird '59 - '60, 430 c.i., sometimes called "J" code engines, but has a different definition than the "J" used with FE and Cleveland blocks in the late 1960's and early 1970's. This is a very rare version of the Thunderbird with fewer than 800 produced in 1960, not sure about number produced in 1959.
Re: What cars came with a MEL engine? Please specify model /
EDSEL E-475 And 1959 J Code TBIRDS
"Edsel '58 - Citation & Corsair models only, 410 c.i. (Was called E-475 engine, Don't think anyone knows why as E-475 had no relationship to displacement, horsepower, or torque."
Jim,
The E-475 MEL was named such as the 410 was rated at 475 ft.lbs. of torque.
The E-400 FE was named such as the 361 was rated at 400 ft.lbs.of torque.
http://edsel.net/engines.html
"Someone with an E-475 is going to need to define correct color, I have personally seen more than one color scheme for the block and valve covers on stock engines."
This is from an earlier post above. I found the information on an EDSEL site and for the life of me can't find it again.
Engine Colors
Green (similar to 1978 Porsche "Fern Green" - DuPont code 273, Porsche code 45639AH):
Block, heads, water pump, intake manifold, oil filler tube, oil pan
Off-White (Mix four parts Derusto Gloss White #874/D-23 and one part Derusto Gloss Almond #884/D-34): Air filter cover, valve covers
Reddish-Orange: E-475 Stenciled on embossed letters
(These decals are still available if anyone is interested)
Gloss Black: Brackets, generator, fan, pulley, starter motor, flywheel cover, inner fender aprons, radiator
Excerpts above from EDSEL Website
My understanding of the sharp decrease in J Code production in 1960 was due to FORD's return to Hi-Performance in 1960 with the introduction of the FE 352/360HP in the FORD line and racers wanting to run the more potent FE (Holman-Moody) and STARLINER body.
The sharp increase in 1959 production J Codes was also due to poor LINCOLN sales that year and as they were both assembled on the same production line, FORD simply rid itself of extra production 430's. I don't have exact production figures.
http://www.automotivemileposts.com/tbir ... tions.html
http://www.automotivemileposts.com/tbir ... tions.html
"Edsel '58 - Citation & Corsair models only, 410 c.i. (Was called E-475 engine, Don't think anyone knows why as E-475 had no relationship to displacement, horsepower, or torque."
Jim,
The E-475 MEL was named such as the 410 was rated at 475 ft.lbs. of torque.
The E-400 FE was named such as the 361 was rated at 400 ft.lbs.of torque.
http://edsel.net/engines.html
"Someone with an E-475 is going to need to define correct color, I have personally seen more than one color scheme for the block and valve covers on stock engines."
This is from an earlier post above. I found the information on an EDSEL site and for the life of me can't find it again.
Engine Colors
Green (similar to 1978 Porsche "Fern Green" - DuPont code 273, Porsche code 45639AH):
Block, heads, water pump, intake manifold, oil filler tube, oil pan
Off-White (Mix four parts Derusto Gloss White #874/D-23 and one part Derusto Gloss Almond #884/D-34): Air filter cover, valve covers
Reddish-Orange: E-475 Stenciled on embossed letters
(These decals are still available if anyone is interested)
Gloss Black: Brackets, generator, fan, pulley, starter motor, flywheel cover, inner fender aprons, radiator
Excerpts above from EDSEL Website
My understanding of the sharp decrease in J Code production in 1960 was due to FORD's return to Hi-Performance in 1960 with the introduction of the FE 352/360HP in the FORD line and racers wanting to run the more potent FE (Holman-Moody) and STARLINER body.
The sharp increase in 1959 production J Codes was also due to poor LINCOLN sales that year and as they were both assembled on the same production line, FORD simply rid itself of extra production 430's. I don't have exact production figures.
http://www.automotivemileposts.com/tbir ... tions.html
http://www.automotivemileposts.com/tbir ... tions.html
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