After I lost a Bennett tab I removed the actuator and wood that was attached to the original tab and finally got to see what the originals looked like. I may stay with Bennett or try the Volvo QL. Here is my question: What is the best way to permanently seal/eliminate the original tab recess? Thank you, Carl.
(below is my first attempt via photobucket)

Hey congratulations on mastering the photobucket thing, and great documentation photo too! Also, WELCOME ABOARD ! I copied and pasted your photo link in this message (not to show off, but to show how you can add photos to make a point or illustrate a comment). Back to your question about how to permanently seal off the recess. I guess you could cast a couple of fiberglass plugs and simply glue (bond with resin) them in, and actually you could cast them so they give you a built in wedge shaped at the exact angle you most often used your tabs. I would hesitate to leave a pocket where water could get in and create a hydrostatic pressure, so you could either make these solid fiberglass reinforced resin, in which case they would probably take a gal of resin or so and be heavy, or you could make them hollow and leave an air space (where your actuator penetrates the hull now) to assure it would breathe and never build up a hydrostatic pressure. Only problem with the last idea, is if you get water in the bilge it would collect there, but normally you would think any water would quickly evaporate and it would stay dry. Commanders don't normally get a lot of water in the bilge, that's part of my wood boat background creeping into the conversation, lol.

It is interesting to note, many of the Commanders actually HAVE the built in (cast in place) fiberglass wedge. The 1966 38 Express for instance, has these, and so does the 1967. My '66 was fitted with factory trim tabs, and I guess they COULD have been a dealer installation, but they're obviously well integrated with the boat and designed for it. Matt O'Donnell's very similar boat does not have the tabs and he says he does not need them on Lake Erie (I don't need them on the Cumberland River either). Both 38s have the cast in place wedge.

If you lost a factory tab finding another one is going to be difficult. I don't recall EVER seeing one for sale anywhere. Therefore if you decide to keep actuated tabs, you may want to remove the one you have and use it for a pattern to make another one, either identical to the one you have or make a pair out of heavy stainless steel stock.

Just a couple thoughts for the morning, on my first cup of coffee!

regards,

Paul

Based on your input and other suggestions I am receiving all I can say is that Commander people are a creative bunch. I have removed the tabs, rods, and stuffing boxes and I am impressed with the quality of the original design and construction. Also I never cease to be amazed at how a metal (silicon bronze) can survive 40 years in salt water spiced with a fair amount of stray electrical current. I like the built in (cast in place) fiberglass wedge idea and it is on my list of options.

Thanks again,
Carl.

Hi Carl

How is it going? I see you are out of the water too. I will post a photo of my factot molded in tabs. I have only really used the bennetts for list compensation.












Don

Hi Don,

The first tab came out easily but I am having to use a hacksaw blade on the second because it was partially glassed in by the PO. Below is a photo of what the slot looks like. It may be too cold for fiberglass work (in CT) so I am just doing prep work for the spring. Looking forward to your photos.

Carl.

Here is my 1966 38 with external trim tabs, note the rather large cast in tabs that are in the hull, whether or not the buyer checked the box for adjustable tabs. My tabs are what I believe to be factory installed, or factory designed and dealer installed, becuase they are consistant to the detail, with others I've seen. This is not an owner installed tab.





Here is Matt O'Donnells 1967 with similar castings. My castings look a little larger than Matt's.


Here is a later model 38 with the integrated tabs


The interesting thing about the tabs on a 38, they really don't need tabs if they have the cast in wedges. Tabs were offered for those who checked the box, or otherwise wanted them, but in reality the 38 hull is so stable and well balanced I never hooked mine up, and Matt never felt the need to add tabs to his boat.

Here I am running without tabs adjusted, they're flat with the hull, and we're basically using the cast in wedges here (running flat like an inboard runabout, 38 balance).

Paul,

It does look like your wedges are larger than mine. I wonder why the difference. I would assume both of them are original. Maybe they refined them in the next model year. Now I do want that boat ride you offered. It would be interesting to see if there is any difference in the ride.

See if you have any more photos of the factory wedges so we can compare.

Matt ODonnell
Changing Channesl
1967 38' FXA-38

It is amazing what you see in a photo the more you look. I only recently realized the fact that there were some differences between model years so close. My boat and yours are just a year apart. It's tough to tell with all the bottom place on there, if those larger tabs on mine are factory or mods, but they sure LOOK well done, and to me they look like they came from the factory. Now I need to find another boat close to my FXA-38-3004-R and see what it looks like. My boat was an early 1966 model, actually number 4 that year and one of "THE" first 38s to get the 427 motors.

I'll keep a look-out, and that boat ride is always available! Lemme know when!

regards,

Paul

here is a crappy pic of mine for comparison



cw

Here are a couple photos from Ray Willis, who is our resident 27' Commander expert.



From an email from Ray:



The 27' Hardtop Sports Express is what we are currently working on. I am sending along a pics of existing tabs (believed to be old school hydraulic type). I have been researching modern replacements. Specifically Bennett Hydraulic vs. Lenco Electro-mechanical. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Any advice?





Since I don't have ANY experience with electric tabs, I can't really give any advice. How about you guys? Anyone out there have any experience, comments, cautions, recommendations?



Regards,



Paul





(Ray, by the way, GREAT BOAT)

When I bought my 36 Sports Cruiser the mechanicals were missing for my factory trim tabs and they were locked in the full-down position with a metal bracket. The PO didn't cruise any faster than 8-9 knots and thought bow down would be the best option at this slow speed.



I want to move much faster and still wanted to preserve the original design of the boat with the internal tabs.



A good friend of mine designed this metal bracket that we secured to the transom allowing the Lenco actuators to push straight down onto the shaft affixed to the original recessed tabs.



If you take on this task its important to get the geometry right as well as insuring the trim tabs do not extend beyond the stroke of the shaft... about 4.5 inches or so. I believe the Lenco actuators come in 2 sizes 2.25" and 4.25" travel.



They are working well and I can fully trim under a variety of conditions. They are kind of noisy, especially when they auto retract after you shut off the ignition though I don't really mind the noise... it only lasts a few seconds.

Fun and satisfying project...

Jim
Seattle
74 36' Sports Cruiser
"Giggity"

Ray, the more I look at this long-stem tab installation, the more I don't like it at all, and I'm sure you agree. It's obvious they were trying to keep the actuator above the waterline, but by doing so they took all the triangulation out of the equation, and virtually all of the force on the tab is being transmitted directly upward and is being resisted only by the screws holding the assembly to the fiberglass. On the tabs shown in the photos below, you can see there is a short stem that quickly triangulates back to the hull, making the entire assembly very strong and rigid, and by doing so you are actually handling someo of the uplift as a force "into" the hull, and some of it is handled as "uplift" by the fasteners.







One thing about the hydraulic tab actuators, theyre waterproof, and they can live below the waterline due to the nature of the device being operated with an oil plunger, etc. The device is inherently waterproof. You can see how far into the water the hydraulic actuators are on TRADITION. They're wet just about all the time.






Also, even on the 20 Skiff, the actuators are well into the water at the dock, essentially submerged all the time unless were up on a plane.









I am wondering if the new style electric units are more suited to shallow draft flat bottom trailerable bass boats where they might be able to get out of the water, or whether they are actually happy being submerged in the water long time on a cruiser. As stated earlier, I have no experience with the electrics, but submerging an electrical device for long term seems like a problem waiting to happen. The units may be engineered to handle the environment like a slam dunk, but it would be interesting to see what the manufacturer says about the long term submersion factor.

Regards,

Paul

Hi Paul.

I've been reading your forum for quite sometime and it's become a regular part of my daily reading that I really enjoy. We don't have a Commander but I've always admired them. (We have a 97 Sea Ray Express cruiser. Sea Ray's attempt at a SF) Your forum contains priceless info that I think can apply to many boats.

There's a conversation going on about trim tabs and you made a comment about what the manufacturers would say about long term effects of submersion. That sparked this email.

I have zero connections to Bennett, it was just interesting to read your post being that previously I had just read about Bennett updating their web site with more educational features so it seemed appropriate to tell you about it. Here is the link. Thanks for the great forum!

http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/hydraulicvselectric.php

Randolph

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities."

Hey Randolph, many thanks for the kind words and for the link. We would expect to have a manufacturer tout the benefits of their own product, and I see this all the time when one manufacturer goes after another on any number of architectural related products, including AC units, elevators, all sorts of exterior cladding and roofing, any number of interior floor, wall, and plumbing products, but most of the time what you read represents fact.

I think it's great to get the marketing info from both products being compared, look at both, make the decision based on as much fact and referrals as possible. Here's the link to Lenco Electric Tabs, for anyone who wants to compare on their own. I did notice the Bennett literature said Lenco had a 3 year warranty (which was probably true when it was 3 years) but now it seems to be 5 years which is apparently an attempt to match Bennett.
What do they say.........."competition improves the product", ? http://www.lectrotab.com/Products/LectrotabBro.pdf

Regards,

Paul

I have had the opportunity to run many boats of varying sizes with Lenco tabs, as well as retrofitted older boats with them. I will say that They are my preference. They are more sensitive to the touch of the switch. Auto-retract is cool. No leaky red fluid in the bilge is my #1 favorite thing!

Hi Carl,



A few years back, I lost a trim tab. I did not want to give up the recessed tabs, so I had a new one made out of fiberglass. While I was at it, I got rid of the internal jack screw actuators and replaced them with Bennet hydraulic. They work MUCH better than the old jack screws. You are lucky that you have both original tabs still in place. If the trailing edge of your tabs stick out beyond the transom, you might be able to attach some Bennet hydraulic actuators. I would consider this before you try removing them, as the cost of removal and then filling in and farring out, could approach the cost of Bennet actuators mounted externally. Mine work fantastic. Below is a picture. By the way, while you are at it, check the hinges. You do not want to loose one of those tabs, as it is very expensive to have new ones fabricated.



Good luck,


John Austin










































.
edit comment: th_ "thumbnail code" removed from image link, to bring it up to full size.