Chris Craft built their own motors from scratch back in the old days of the A-120. Those motors had something like 800 cubic inches and 250-hp, and they weighed enough to anchor the Queen Mary II.
Later as flathead four and six cylinder motors became commonplace, as manufactured by Chrysler, Graymarine, and Hercules, Chris Craft turned to the Hercules brand for their main power options.
In 1959 CC introduced the 283 Chevy motor, soon to become the 327 and the trend continues today with lightweight V8 small block power that produces superb power to weight.
Here are some of the options from the 1970 Chris Craft "POWER" brochure, compliments of Robert DaPron.
(Note, upon close examination of the original document, the valve cover said "327Q and 235-hp". The 350 is listed as the same power rating.
In addition, although the 327 was a great motor in its own right, it's basically a larger 283. The 350 is also a larger 283, but it's the first of the 4-bolt main small blocks!
(Below): What all 427 motors should look like, the immaculately maintained power in Tim Toth's 35' Commander. Looks like a museum piece, eh? Beautiful !!
Regards,
Paul
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Feb 23, 2007 7:22 AM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Feb 22, 2007 3:44 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Feb 22, 2007 2:29 PM
The Q motor series represents some very sweet running small block Chevys. Everything from the 283 up through the 350 represent essentially the same block.
Naturally there are some internal changes over the years, but it's quite hard to tell these engines from one another simply by looking at the blocks, because they're externally the same.
Here are some comparisons with the early series of Chevy SBC motors.
283F
185 hp at 4000 RPM
261 ft. lbs. torque at 3000 RPM
Bore 3-7/8"
Stroke 3"
Compression ratio 8.0:1
327F
210 hp at 4000 RPM
302 ft. lbs. torque at 2600 RPM
Bore 4"
Stroke 3-1/4"
Compression ratio 8.0:1
307Q
200 hp at 4000 RPM
280 ft. lbs. torque at 3100 RPM
Bore 3-7/8"
Stroke 3-1/4"
Compression ratio 8.1:1
350Q
235 hp at 4000 RPM
330 ft. lbs. torque at 3100 RPM
Bore 4.00"
Stroke 3.5"
Compression ratio 8.8:1
The interesting thing about the 307Q, is it's an ever so slightly stroked 283 with a hint of a compression boost. The result of this, along with some improvements in the intake design, produce an additional 15 hp and 21 footpounds of torque over the highly thought of 283.
The 350Q is rated at a relaxed 235 hp and produces a healthy torque rating. These engines are built to last, and a 350 can produce 350-hp with ease, but it probably wouldn't last as long in the marine environment as the one Chris Craft specified.
What a great line of small V8 options. I have two 327 motors right now, one that is semi hot rodded in a 17' wood Chris Craft at around 300-hp, and another in my recently acquired 20' fiberglass Sea Skiff, which has 8.5:1 compression because it's an automotive block conversion. Automotive horsepower rating of this motor was 250, and it is not known what sort of power it produces in it's present form. Performance runs may help estimate this later when we see what kind of prop it will spin. They're all able to be interchanged, with some attention to the rear seals and some other details.
One important internal change that occurred with the advent of the 350 is the 4-bolt main bearing caps. The 327 series didn't have the 4-bolt mains, and it is not known at this time whether or not the contemporary 307Q also got the 4-bolt mains when this feature was added to the 350. The feature isn't really needed in our use of this engine series, but it just makes a good engine better.
Below: The first 283 small block Chevy motor used in a Chris Craft, circa 1959, one beautiful running compact V8 motor.
Regards,
Paul
In case you haven't seen (and heard) it elsewhere, here is what a 327F sounds like at idle (turn up your speakers and ENJOY ! )
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jun 14, 2007 10:46 AM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Feb 24, 2007 3:05 AM
In 1958 a new 283 block with thicker cylinder walls was introduced. These can be bored out to 4.0" when new (less if internally corroded badly).
This means the little 283 was one tough little motor with lots of iron. No wonder they last so long.
In 1959 rear main bearing seals were changed from graphite impregnated rope seals to a neoprene seal, far better design.
The 327 was produced from 1962 to 1967, according to the book, but the charts clearly show 327 motors in 1968 and 1969. Later in the book they say the 327 of 1968 usedthe large journal forged crank in most truck and Corvette applications, so I guess they acknowledge the 327 was produced beyond 1967. A lot of pattern changes were made at the factory to produce this one. Under side of the block was relieved so a bigger crank and 4" pistons could be used. On the 283 this operation would be required on most if you were doing a 4" bore job.
On one chart it shows the 350 starting production in 1967 and in another they say 1968.
For me, I'm old enough to remember that first 57 Chevy I rode in with the 283. Yes I know the 283 came out in '55. That 57 Chevy was considered a fast car back then, my how things have changed!
I see reference to mechanical solid lifters for the first six months of 283 production, and Corvettes up to 1964, the 327 fuel injection motors, and 1970-71 Z-28 motors.
From what I understand, Chris Craft started using the 283 in 1959, and there must still be many thousands out there still in service. Because of that heavy cylinder wall thickness, they can be rebuilt many times!
I know the post was for the 1970 motors, but don't forget about the 327Q. We have a 31' Commander in our harbor with those motors, and every time the guy drives in or out, several of us just get quiet and listen with appreciation. Chris Craft did a great job with the early boats, allowing them to sound off a bit. The later boats are so quiet you sometimes dont even know if the motor is running.
I think 1968 was the end of production at Ford for the 427. It was offered in a hydraulic version that year with 390-hp, or so they said.
CC continued using the 427 motor after production stopped, because they had a stock of the motors. I'll bet that warehouse looked cool, huh?
The transition to GM 454 power was undoubtedly done due to price. At the time the transition was made, Ford had viable big block motors in production that could have made some fine power plants for CC, and Chrysler did too. Can you imagine if they went back to Lincoln power, with a 462?? That would have been way too expensivel but that motor would have been very durable. The logical choice would have appeared to be the 429 / 460 motor series from Ford, but apparently the negotiations, or perhaps a personal contact, resulted in the GM choice.
The big block Chevrolet is a fine motor, but it is no better or worse than the alternatives that were available at the time. Had 440 Chryslers or 460 Fords been used, it would have sparked a major industry parts and marine support business for those motors. CC already had a good relationship with GM at the time, because they (GM) was supplying the small block Q motors at the time. It would be interesting to know how the shopping was done, and how the decision was made.
There are plenty of 1972 entries in the Essential Guide (by Jerry Conrad) that show boats with the 427 Ford motors. Yes, I agree the motor was out of production then, but Chris Craft must have had an impressive stock of these in a warehouse somewhere. Wouldn't it be great to have been able to buy a few of those for spares!
The 41' Flush Deck of 1972 - 1977 shows the Ford 427 or the GM 454 listed during this time frame. This shows me that we know the 427 was still being offered during model year 1972. However, taking a forensic look at the Essential Guide, I see plenty of other voids, such as the 47' Commander of 1969-1976 which shows the only gas option as the Ford 427 and a GM listing for the 8V53 diesel. Either CC took a gas offering off the table, stretched their stock of 427 motors, or didn't list the GM 454. Since any three of these is possible, I guess we'll need to find a 1973 manufacturer's brochure and see what the big block gas offering is.
For now, I think 1972 is the first year of 454 use in a Chris Craft. GM and Ford were both supplying motors prior to this, and either one had the chance to "do it all". However, due to the stellar performance of the GM small block, and the CC history going back to 1959 with the small block motor, it would appear that GM had more leverage. In any case, they (GM) prevailed with the commission to supply the big blocks, and the rest is history.
Thanks for the confirmations, guys. Maybe someone will show up with a very late 1973 hull number with the transition to GM big block power, or perhaps someone will show up with an early 1974 hull number that still used the remaining few 427 motors. In any case, that appears to be an 8-year reign as the king of the hill of gas offerings from 1966-1973 inclusive. These motors were not just used in Chris Craft boats either, as there are numerous examples of other manufacturers, including Hatteras, using motors fully marinized by Chris Craft, and fully marinized and marketed by Interceptor.
Regards, Paul
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Apr 11, 2007 3:35 PM
I have FDA-360009H which is a 1974 36' Sports Fisher with a pair of the BIG DOGS! The boat has about 1200 hours total on it and though was neglected when I got her the engines are running very well with fresh carb rebuilds, oil, plugs and cap & rotors.
Jim, it now looks like 1974 was the last of the 427 breed !
September 11 2008, 3:43 PM
Thanks for the confirmation Jim, and again,
---------> NICE BOAT ! <---------
Use good oil and keep good impellers in that boat and that motor will possibly outlast you and the next owner too! They are GREAT MOTORS, very strong, but they don't like running without oil!
I have used Mobil-1 Synthetic 15W50 for years and my 427 motors really seem to like it. Plugs stay clean, startup is very slick with the full cold flow capability of an engineered oil product that actually flows better than some 5W oils when cold. In addition, I have long thought it gives better protection to emergency situations, such as blowing out an impeller and not knowing until things get hot.
Quite awhile ago I did just that. I destroyed an impeller and didn't know that it even happened. Here we were cruising along and Janet said, "do you smell something"? I glanced back and it looked like a WW-II destroyer laying down a smoke screen, as I was burning up the inside of the rubber exhaust hose at the time. I immediately shut down the motor, and thankfully, did not experience any motor damage. I attribute this in part, to having an oil on board that also helped act as a cooling agent, and provides far superior properties than the "cheap equivalent".
Now Mobil-1 has a new 15W50 on the market, and it is their "Extended Performance" variety, which I would most certainly use. Another superb oil can be found in the oil section of our Master Index Files, but I'll save you from having to look it up, here it is http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1124814627
I have not used the Amsoil marine product noted, but I have used it in my Porsche 928 V8 5-speed with very good results. I have had exceptional results using Amsoil synthetic gear lube in three Porsche transaxles too, so they do make a great product.
Back to the Ford big dogs...........with clean PCV valves, good fuel filtration and clean carbs, a good distributor cap, adjusted contact points and/or electronic Pertronix ignition, timed properly, and with valves properly set, you will have one awesome piece of marine equipment with great performance and lots of history too. They like having the valves set properly too.
This is a nice documentation photo of the 283 FLV.
Note the oil fill tube, which indicates the old style 283 and 327 4-bbl intake manifolds. Note also the thermostat housing, and that fuel filter down there behind the belt that people seem to forget about.
327F power and torque numbers, and fuel consumption
February 18 2008, 4:14 PM
The more I look at the specs for the 327F, the more and more I appreciate this small block engine. Most of you guys know I'm a dyed-in-the-wool 427 guy, but I also have two small block Chevy powered boats too.
The Torque spec for the 327F says it maxes out at 2600 RPM with 302 footpounds of torque. However, that torque curve is almost dead level FLAT from 2300 to 3200, and they did it without modern vario-cam or computerized fuel injection technology. This makes the 327F one sweet running motor. Imagine having maximum torque available at 2300 RPM, no wonder these make such great ski boat motors and heavy lifters via gear reduction for cruisers too.
The horsepower curve is a straight upturned graph, with power running from 125 to 180-hp over the same 2300 to 3200 rpm noted above. The more rpm, the more horsepower you make, all the way to 4000. The torque curve is what makes the motor so tractable, and at a low 8.0:1 compression, no wonder.
Fuel burn rates are as follows (first number is rpm, second number is gal per hour of consumption):
Please tell me about 1970 Chris craft commander with the following engines..
307 V8..ser# 102753 and 102751. Are these orginal to this boat and who made this engine..GM or CHrysler or someone else..
Thank you Susan
If you look at the specifications closely, you will note the 307 is essentially identical to the older 283 cubic inch displacement engine from GM, sharing the same bore of 3-7/8", but with a larger crankshaft stroke of 3-1/4" rather than the 3" stroke found in the 283.
The 307 is externally identical for all practical purposes to the larger 327 and 350 cubic inch version of this same small block design. The marind Q series used a different intake manifold, and even a different cylinder numbering and timing system than any other variant of this small block engine series, so beware.
The small block GM motors are well thought of, and natually they can only be expected to do the job their particular power rating is intended to do. Parts are readily available, and the 1970 CC you mention likely was fitted with this engine as original equipment.
Here's something from June 1962, Yachting Magazine. It's THE PREMIUM V8 offering of the era, from Lincoln Mercury Division of FoMoCo. These were not cheap motors, quite the contrary, they were expensive, plank-head motors rated at 275-hp, able to almost run forever. Bearing surfaces are large, there is lots of iron, and these would be a fabulous collectable if anyone had a fresh (or good running) pair in a Chris Craft yacht of any kind, Commander, Constellation, or otherwise.
These motors were offered in automotive form at power ratings of 375 to 400-hp with three carbs. At 275, they are detuned and would (and did) easily outlast many owners!
The first in-the-water test of a Commander, by Hank Bowman, used a 38 Commander in 1964 fitted with this engine option. Here is that test, a chriscraftcommander.com exclusive: http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1173461961
534 cubic inch Ford Industrial SEAMASTER power option
May 4 2007, 1:52 PM
If you think the big Lincoln was an expensive premium engine option, just look at the 534 cubic inch industrial version of this plank head engine family. Some Chris Craft boats were so equipped, upon request of the owner. This was not an inexpensive option!
Thought someone might like to know that there are two of these currently listed on eBay (items: 140267422448 & 140267463608). No idea what shape they're in (no affiliation with the seller).
I've heard a lot of discussion about the Y-block motors recently, due to some of my antique boating buddies working on some 312 cubic inch displacement motor restorations, and I thought I would clarify just what a Y - block Ford motor really is.
Most people associate the Y - block designation with the 1954-57 (and beyond) 232-312 series, most commonly known as the 292 in later years, but it originated with the 1952-57 Lincoln motor.
The Y-block designation is given to any motor that has the sides of the engine block casting extending down below the centerline of the crankshaft. Therefore, when looking at a frontal cross section of the motor block, the block looks more like a "Y" than a "V". Technically, the FE series, of which the 427 is a member, are all Y-block designs. The Y configuration was incorporated into motor block design for additional rigidity and strength, providing some of the strongest blocks of all time.
The small block Fords of the early 221 and 260, growing to 289, 302, and eventually to 351 cubic inches, is not a Y-block design. It is a lighter weight casting that has also proven to be very good design too. On these motors, the iron casting extends down to the vicinity of crankshaft centerline, and from there down, there is only a sheet metal oil pan, making this a lighter weight design.
The Chevrolet small block (and I believe the big block too) is similar to the small block Ford.
Here is a perfect example of a Y -block motor, this one happens to be a marine 427 owned by Charles Fouquet, in Martinique. Note the fact that the block casting extends down below the centerline of the crankshaft. Thus the "Y" block designation.
Hercules flathead power, from the mid 1930's into the 1960's
December 28 2007, 3:32 PM
How’s this for a chunk of American Iron? This is a Hercules KBL flathead six with a hot cam and 131 hp, and many of us have experience with these motors, some of us still have them. I have two, one is the model K, and the other is the KLC with 120 hp, and part of my collection is a triple downdraft setup like this one. There was a KL series with 105 hp, and a KFL too. I always thought of “hot rodding” my KLC by installing the triple carbs, but never got around to it, so that’s something I’ll get into someday, perhaps, but I have them in a box. I’m sure they’ll all need to be rebuilt. In addition, I even discussed with Mr. Lunati ond day, the prospects of reprofiling the camshaft. That was nuts, but it would have been fun!
Interestingly enough, my 17’ Sportsman was offered with a Chris Craft model B, K(95), KL (105), KBL(131) triple downdraft, KLC (120) single updraft, KFL(131) dual updraft, and 283. You could basically go as fast as your wallet would allow. In the meantime, however, some of the competition, namely Century, were soon offering Ford big blocks, sigh!
My Hercules Model K (1957 17’ Sportsman) weighs 680 pounds and produced 95 horsepower. My Model KL I replaced it with a 283 setup I got out of a Chris Craft Super Sport, which actually turned out to be a 327 block with 283 ancillary equipment. With a few easy tweaks it now pushes out somewhere around 300 horsepower, with less weight than the big Hercules. I’m running the V8 setup in a lightweight 1956 Chris Craft 17’ (mahogany) hull, and I can tell you the darn thing will fly. I’m in the process of adding a deeper rudder, by the way, so that should tell you speed freaks a thing or two about the speed capability.
Commanders never had this kind of power, as the Hercules began being replaced back in 1958 long before the fiberglass boats ever became a real dream. These monsters could be obtained with as much as 175 horsepower for the larger boats, and they were used in big Constellations and runabouts alike. They were used for so many years, in fact, they became known as “the Chris Craft motor”. They produce an unmistakable sound on the water, they were used in a variety of industrial applications such as fork lifts, and they’re known for having lots of iron and lasting almost forever.
They’re big on torque, and run out of breathing capability around 3200 rpm. As a result they’re propped accordingly. My 1957 17’ Chris Craft Sportsman still has a model K, and I’ve pulled many a water skier behind the boat. When it came time to “hit it”, the big six just bellowed and dug in. You didn’t hear much change in rpm, but the skier was popped out of the water and off we went. When not being used for skiing, these boats could be fitted with greater pitch in the prop, and the boat would still have the torque to run well (but would not pull skiers as well).
A blast from the past, thanks to Bill Basler’s Brass Bell Boat Buzz, a link of which can be found on our front page of the Chris Craft Commander Forum, Inc.
Photo below, showing my 120-hp Hercules coming out.
These motors remind me of the Volvo sales pitch of 1963, when they were selling the 544 Sport (iron 4-cylinder OHV with dual carbs): “drive it like you hate it”. You could drive one of these all day long and it wouldn’t ever seem to notice. Great motors. They’ll be around as long as people can find parts, and thanks to the fact that they were built for so many years and used in so many applications, you can still find Zolner pistons and everything else still on the shelf. It’s amazing what lies hidden in warehouses all over the country!
These two photos below are the Model K (95-hp) back from being 100% rebuilt, with new Zolner pistons. It ran beautifully! This is the 1957 17' Sportsman.
Regards, Paul
(so many boats, so little time)
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Dec 31, 2007 1:39 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Dec 28, 2007 3:41 PM
The 350 is listed as the same power rating.
