When we were talking about swaps on bellhousings I pointed out that 61 was a single year for blocks and bellhousings so it appeared that something was different. Thanks to the members over at teh Lincoln forum, I have now discovered that the 61 bellhousing is different from a 62-65 because of a vent that was added in 62 in the front of the trans case. This helps as it explains why a 61 was one year only for the bellhousing but I am still not sure why the block is 61 only although I think it may be an internal difference which would mean a 61 block will bolt to a 62-65 bellhousing. I am still looking for a 61-65 bellhousing to see if it will bolt to a 58-60 trans so if you have a parts car let me know! Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!

You know my 59 T-Bird has a 61 Linclon engine and I have a 1959 trans. It just crossed my mind I may have your photo since my tranny is out, the engine is out and the bell housing is on the floor in the garage.

I don't have a clue if IF the bell housing is from a 61 or a 59 Thunderbird but I will go take a photo of it and you can decide. I can high pressure wash the bell housing off and look for numbers if you tell me what I should be looking for. All I can tell you is the data plate says it's a 1959 Cruis-O-Matic tranny and it fit the 61 Lincoln engine with the bell bousing that was on the car when I bought it.

If it's what you need I can send you a photo with a straight edge in it for scale.

Want the photo?

Dave

aka JBird

http://www.rhyner.com/59jbird/bellhousing.html

If you want exact measurements just YELL!

Dave

And it will show the difference between the 60 and 61 bell patterns...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/257364/message/1158578582/Comparison+of+1960+And+1961+MEL+Bell+Housings

My bell housing has no comparison to the 61 bell housing in the link you posted. With the 8AN I guess I have an original 58 bell housing.

I sure wish I knew for sure about the engine. I'd hoped it was an original 59 430 but the blue paint and the wrong EVERYTHING was on it. Water pump, the engine had an ALTERNATOR BRACKET not a generator bracket, A/C pulley on the water pump said C1VE which is 1961, the valve cover combs were the type for the plastic tabs ... all wrong. My 1959 Bird was supposed to have been built in 1958 and have the 1958 Lincoln engine with the metal combs and rubber grommets on the wires. Those J-Birds were built in the Lincoln plant and engines were just pulled off the Lincoln line and painted black for the T-Birds. Wixom, MI was where mine was where my T-Bird made on December 24, 1958.

What's this I hear about the Wixom plant closing?

"My bell housing has no comparison to the 61 bell housing in the link you posted. With the 8AN I guess I have an original 58 bell housing.

I sure wish I knew for sure about the engine. I'd hoped it was an original 59 430 but the blue paint and the wrong EVERYTHING was on it."

The bell may actually be a 59 depending on the Date Code. I had posted here somewhat earlier interpreting Casting Codes and now can't find it (I didn't keep a copy for myself). I was also asking participants here and at other forums to supply me with their markings as they came across them and that drew little interest. Also, the code method changed in 1959 when FORD changed their numbering system, increasing the difficulty.

There were early 1958 blocks and later according to changes to the block casting. There were also differences in engine mount positioning and all of this has to be taken into account. 5750416 on your block suggests 1958 casting as it was a limited PN system used. In 1959, the method went to the system we are more familiar with today.

Let me try and get all of this info together again and we will see what you have exactly.

You have only the one block, correct?

J bird, I now realize you are operating under a lot of incorrect assumptions. First off your car is a 59 and would have a 59 Tbird engine not a Lincoln engine. They did not just grab and engine from the Lincoln line and slap it into a bird. The engines are ordered from the engine plant and delivered to the vehicle assembly plant. They order engines based on planned units. There is no great pile of engines waiting to be used, they are built to order on a weekly basis. The Wixom plant knew how many Tbirds would be built with a 430 that week because it was all planned ahead of time and the parts are shipped for use prior to assembly of the car. Your car is not a particularly early car as it was built in December of 58 which is about 1/3 of the way through the production run. This means it is way too late to have had any 58 features. My car is earlier than yours (September 58) and it does not have the comb style valve covers as those were a 58 item not a 59 item. The pictures you posted are definitely 58-60 bellhousing and block as a 61 and newer block has a different casting where the bottom passenger side bellhousing bolt goes in. Also, Kultulz, Note that the weird numbering system was used from some point in mid 58 to somepoint in mid 59 and on most molds was not changed due to expense since the engineering number was not a part number it did not matter. The numbers were not changed until the molds were changed or revised so blocks heads and manifolds used that numbering system longer than things like carbs and distributors that actually had the part number stamped into it rather than cast as part of the mold. Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!

"Kultulz, Note that the weird numbering system was used from some point in mid 58 to somepoint in mid 59 and on most molds was not changed due to expense since the engineering number was not a part number it did not matter. The numbers were not changed until the molds were changed or revised so blocks heads and manifolds used that numbering system longer than things like carbs and distributors that actually had the part number stamped into it rather than cast as part of the mold. Hawkrod"

I was collecting different Casting I.D. Nos. and dates here until I got overly involved with the LCOC Board. There is also a lot of information entered there (and lost) that should have been here.

Below is a shot of the I.D. Nos. from the supposedly 60 LINC Theo redid (I say supposedly as only the 58 LINC was painted green). It also has early markings and only the forward mounting pad.



Below is a takeout from a 59 MERC.



The LINC (I am assuming) used the numbering system whereas as each engine had it's own I.D. No., as EDG was a 383, EDH a 410 and EDJ a 430. The Y and the FE also used this sytem. The ED 6015 B identifies the block as either a 383 or 430 (same cast) as the bores were the same.

The 59 MERC shows the new system we are more familiar with, i.e. B9ME 6015 and also shows the side skirt modification for 1959 that gave the engine two distinct mounting pad positions. The 59/60 BIRD retained the forward mount whereas I believe the 59 MERC went to the mid-skirt.

So there is no set pattern here. Yes, the BIRD 430 was calibrated differently from the LINC, but all I.D. Nos. should match, except for possible 1960 where the BIRD kept the 4V engine and LINC went to 2V.

The design changes introduced on the 1961 430 were profound as the engine went division only and not corporate.

I need to find those earlier notes and find earlier MPC's/TSB's to get this whole early MEL engine differences sorted out. Between the two of us, this forgotten ancient mystery should be solved (somewhat).

I hope Theo updates this board style soon to as where things will not get buried as easily...

Sorry. Black is rough to photograph with a flash and without, the pic's are too dark.

The number should be 5750416 NOT 574416

The one in the photo on the web page came out of the T-Bird. That's the only 430 I have. I have a 58 Merc 383 block though.

J-BIRD,

You gave the following Casting I.D. Nos. from your block either here or at LCOC.

7BE:1
5750416
8
DIF (DEARBORN IRON FOUNDRY)
44

43532 ER
4-7B01

4-7B01 is the actual date code (CASTING)

This is the info given in the 1958 LINC-MERC TSB No. 8

4 is the Engine Plant Code (Lima)
7 is the Year Code (1957)
B is the Month Code (DEC)
O is the Day Code (14)
1 is the Plant Inspector Code

So you have 14 DEC 1957. It is an early one and explains the 7 character PN (5750416)

I have to find the interpretation of the Date Code on the bell.

OK...The 60 bell has a Casting I.D. of COMP 7976-B. Yours has a Casting I.D. of P3B 7976-B (if I read it correctly from the photo) and a Casting Date of 8AN (which I am not sure as to how to decipher the month and day). P (on prefix P3B) refers to Powertrain and is formatted differently from the later transmission parts. So this definitely makes it early).

What is the build date on the car?

(24 DEC 1958)

J,

I am going to insert the photo of your engine skirt (shown on SQUAREBIRDS) here to try and keep everything together for future reference.



When your detailing comes to the engine, are you wanting number correct pieces (only the intake and possibly the head numbers would show) or are you going to be able to use any period correct block?

This is starting to resemble the member at SQUAREBIRDS that had the early solid 352 in his 58 BIRD...

According to my book it was made December 24, 1958. The DATE on the door data plate says 24M
24 day of the month
M= December First Year (1958)

So the engine is a year older than the car. That should mean it definatly had metal wire combs on the valve covers if it was made in 1957 for the 58/59's.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if it was an engine out of a 1958 T-Bird 430 prototype! I wish.

Thanks,

JBird

The casting date will very rarely be more than 60 days and almost never 90 days before vehicle assembly. On high volume lines the casting dates will be 14 days out but on a 430 Tbird it will likely be about 30 days out just because they actually built engines in batches and didn't run 430's every day like they did with 352's. I have not checked my engine date codes on my car (have had it in storage since just after buying it) but I am pulling the 430 from my 60 Lincoln tomorrow or Saturday (I spent all day unbolting things) and will let you know how far out that date is from vehicle assembly date. Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!

"I am pulling the 430 from my 60 Lincoln tomorrow or Saturday (I spent all day unbolting things) and will let you know how far out that date is from vehicle assembly date. Hawkrod"

Hawkrod,

Being as the 60 LINC was a 2V engine, could you document all casting/stamping numbers you come across?

Probably be Monday now but I got stuck cleaning up a rental house I am trying to get a tenant in. God i hate painting! LOL Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!