November 13 2004 at 8:42 AM No score for this post
(Login KULTULZ) MEL Forum Moderator from IP address 69.140.35.248
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I finally got up off my lazy butt and contacted AERA (Engine Rebuilders Association) for information pertaining to spec. sheets and if such a thing was available. The guy was really friendly and accomodating and said he would send the pertinent sheets (58/65 and 66/68) for the MEL engine. No charge even...
What I received shows they have as little spec. information as the rest of the industry. It must be an entirely forgotten engine. Very few specs. The 1958 MERC Shop Manual I have has more information.
Anyways, it states the Deck Height as 10.170" (258.318MM) C/L of main to deck. Main to cam bore distance 5.044" (128.118MM). Connecting rod center to center distance 6.600" (167.64MM). Piston pin height is not given.
The sheets also do not give the differences in early (1958) heads and those that followed as MEL had many engineering defects and heads and camshafts were superseded. This information is contained in factory TSB's of the era that I need to find copies of.
Neither differences in CR, head port size or valve size is given. I suppose this information will have to come from each appropriate year shop manual.
I am going to try and retrieve more information and construct a chart so that enthusists will hopefully know what they are looking at when purchasing used parts or planning upgrades.
Just thought I would update you.
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Where would I find EGGE pistons? Are they availible in oversize? Is EGGE the manufacturor? Do they have a website? What are the costs on a set? Where are they made?
thanks,
Mark Piechowski
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The MEL block deck height must be greater than 10.17 . Take the 1958 430 CID, for example, the piston compression ht is approx. 2.00, the deck clearance is between 0.009-0.025, call it 0.017, con rod is 6.60, half the 3.70 stroke is 1.85. 2.00 + 0.017 + 6.60 + 1.85 = 10.467 deck ht at the valley side edge of the cylinder. 10.467 + 0.379 = 10.846 deck ht at the cylinder center. Note that the MEL valley side deck ht varies with the bore diameter - it decreases as the bore increases. A spec for MEL deck ht is useless unless it specifies where the measurement is taken - edge or center. An edge deck ht spec should specify the bore dia as it makes a difference. Thanks, KULTULZ, for the effort.
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I was very disappointed in the material(s) received. Whether it is accurate or not is only going to be verified by one actually having a block to take measurements off of.
Like you say, the sheet calls for the measurement at the C/L OF MAIN TO DECK. Exactly where at the deck?
Maybe this spec will help you;
MAIN TO CAM BORE DISTANCE 5.044" (128.118MM)
Hopefully, I will stumble across the needed information.
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I wonder if the deck height is measured to the inside of the cylinder bore as this is where the actual quench area is? To calculate proper deck height you would then use a formula to allow for the ten degree cut in the deck (to say square the block on a machine)?
It seems this would be neccessary to know what pistons to use (there must have been many different ones as the CR seemed to change from year to year).
How far have you come in your research? I know I am lacking on mine...
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Its a real treasure trove of specs, but doesnt have piston pin height, or block deck height. The purpose of my research is to contemplate in detail the prospect of putting the 4.50 x 3.75 - 477 and 4.50 x 4.20 - 534 Super Duty bore x stroke - cubes into a custom MEL engine. Both the MEL and Super Duty have angled block decks ( SD 13 degrees ), so they have a lot in common.
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I think you are going to find very little in similiarity between the Super Duty (401/477/534) and FE/MEL series of engines. This engine series was very large and meant for heavy trucks of that period (58/ ).
The 430 MEL can be poked and stroked to well over 500 cu.in..
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Super Duty 5.25 bore spacing - 1032 lbs for the 534
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December 16 2004, 7:34 AM
What I had in mind for the 477 MEL and 534 MEL : 477 MEL - 450 HP - 1.80 pin ht, 0.0333 deck clearance, 6.825 con rod length, 1.82 rod ratio, 10.5333 block deck ht at valley side edge of cylinder, 10.93 block deck ht at center of cylinder, 2.25 intake valve, 1.875 exhaust valve, cross-bolted #2,#3,#4 main caps. 534 MEL - 500 HP - 1.80 pin ht, 0.0333 deck clearance, 7.35 con rod length, 1.75 rod ratio, 11.2833 block deck ht at valley side edge of cylinder, 11.68 block deck ht at center of cylinder, 2.30 intake valve, 1.90 exhaust valve, cross-bolted #2,#3,#4 main caps.
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How do you intend to get an extra inch of deck height?
The stock deck height is plenty for the 4.2 stroke and a 4.5 bore is doable. Why make things difficult?
I don't think crossbolts are needed either. It's not like nobody has ever built one of those engines, they used to popular in the late 50's and early 60's and guy were making pretty good power with the mostly stock parts.
Check the cover of the "History of Hot Rodding" magazine on the stands now.... that's an MEL.
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Tom P, I agree that 534 should stick to near stock deck ht. Having same block for 477-534 saves time + money, 534 fits MEL cars w/o major mods. Try on these new specs for size. 477 MEL : 1.80 piston pin ht, 0.0333 deck clearance, 7.05 con rod length, 1.88 rod ratio, 10.7583 block deck ht at valley side of cylinder bore, 11.155 block deck ht at cylinder center. 534 MEL : 1.80 piston pin ht, 0.0333 deck clearance, 6.825 con rod length, 1.625 rod ratio, 10.7583 block deck ht at valley side of cylinder bore, 11.155 block deck ht at cylinder center. Id make a custom engine out of wood before Id make one with 2 bolt mains! You have the deep crankcase, why not cross-bolt the mains ?
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If KULTULZ is at least close in the figures, with 1050 # approx weight, and an extra inch of deck height (however you measure it) it would sure be a huge burden in even a Continental or T-Bird, about 250-350# more than the robust 430-462.
The recip assembly is locomotive sized in those engines, too.
Better to bore and stroke, methinks.
I bet the commonality was at the engine plant, where the main machining for the decks and cylinder heads could have been done on the same transfer line.
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MEL has 4.90 bore spacing, so 4.50 bore would fit with 0.40 between adjacent bores. There was a 0.625 aftermarket stroker crank available at one time for the 430, so a 4.325 stroke crank would fit the MEL. SD 534 has 4.20 stroke, which should fit even with 7/16 con rod bolts.
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I just came across this forum and am enjoying the information. I like you have been unable to find piston specs. I have a 1960 Tbird with the 430 Lincoln motor option. The Tbird manual lists the compression ratio at 10.1. I have dismantled the engine for rebuild and measured the piston. The compression height is 2.005 inches from the pin center to top of piston. My pistons have a small wedge on the galley side. I am trying to find pistons with a flat or dished top and slightly lower compression height. I would like to lower the compression to approximately 9.5. This would make it easier to run on the gasoline we have today. If anyone has suggestions they would be greatly appreciated.
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As for off the shelf MEL pistons to lower compression theres none. 383 has 3.3 stroke, 6.6 rod, greater comp ht. 410 has 3.7 stroke, 6.6 rod, same comp ht, but only 4.2 bore. 462 has 3.83 stroke, probably 6.6 rod, probably less comp ht, but 4.38 bore. There was an export version of 430 with a 7.25 compression ratio, Ive heard the heads had conventional chambers. These would be hard to find in the US, and have too low compression for you anyway. It looks like you would have to go with custom made pistons. I recommend J+E as having the best technical advisors. Only the MEL, 401-477-534 Super Duty and 348-409 Chevy W series are "plankheads" so tech help is important. J+E order form asks valve free drop. Valve free drop is distance parallel to cylinder centerline low edge of valve head is above head face. On a MEL free drop is a negative number (thickness of valve head protuding from head).
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