I spoke with a cam grinding company about camshafts for MEL's. He said he didn't know of anyone making new cams for MEL's, but he did say the cam core makers would cast a minimum order of 100 cam cores. He said if he had 50 orders to cover half the investment he would move forward with the MEL cams. The price on each core is about 65 or so and a finished cam is about 150--without lifters. The lifters would cost about 40 or so, he said the lifters are cheap because they are the same as an FE lifter.
I know I would like a more up to date camshaft design when I rebuild my 430. I would order a couple cam shafts and maybe some cores--so that would lower the amount of people that we need to make this happen.
thanks,
Mark Piechowski
70 XR-7 460 AOD
69 SS 351c 2v AOD
70 XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Sunroof Eliminator 351w 4v FMX
78 Bronco Ranger XLT TS 351m C-6
78 F-150 Ranger Lariat 460 C-6
58 Park Lane Phaeton Coupe 430
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Can I ask who the cam maker is? The reason I ask is I would rather go with one that keeps up with tech (computer designed) rather than a maker who justs regrinds old patterns.
But I would surely support this.
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I had sent out e-mails to a bunch of cam companies and most responded back with "it is not availible" or "you need to place an order of atleast 500 cams---and it is very expensive". This guy had the lowest minimum order and when I spoke with him on the phone I found out that he used to be an L-M tech back in the mid to late 60's. He owns several old Ford products. He said he has thought about doing something about the MEL cams, but wasn't sure if there was enough interest to support the investment.
The way I see it is even if his lobe designs aren't right up to date, a cam design from the 90's or even the 80's would be better than from the 50's to mid 60's. Besides, he can grind whatever duration and lobe sep you want. I think there would be very few people interested in making a full race motor with big lumpy cams, but I know I would be interested in having more street pep and better overall torque of an RV style cam.
Take a look at their website, I think they would be the best people to take on this project.
Mark Piechowski
70 XR-7 460 AOD
69 SS 351c 2v AOD
70 XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Sunroof Eliminator 351w 4v FMX
78 Bronco Ranger XLT TS 351m C-6
78 F-150 Ranger Lariat 460 C-6
58 Park Lane Phaeton Coupe 430
This message has been edited by KULTULZ from IP address 69.140.54.63 on Jun 19, 2005 1:38 AM
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"The way I see it is even if his lobe designs aren't right up to date, a cam design from the 90's or even the 80's would be better than from the 50's to mid 60's. Besides, he can grind whatever duration and lobe sep you want. I think there would be very few people interested in making a full race motor with big lumpy cams, but I know I would be interested in having more street pep and better overall torque of an RV style cam.
Take a look at their website, I think they would be the best people to take on this project."
Ok...You convinced me. It would be better with a small company anyways as they will most likely show more appreciation for small orders.
There is a problem with the early MEL (1958) as there were several valvetrain failures and upgrades. I know of one gentleman that had a major cam grinder (an origional supplier) grind him a cam fairly recently and the grinder needed to know when the block/heads were cast as to determine what changes MEL had performed on it. I am still seeking this information (in the form of factory TSB's).
And you are correct. I doubt that anyone is going to want a full race cam, just something to give it a little more pull and thumpity-thump.
I am sure there will be several people on the LCOC board that will be interested.
I would also like to start a knowledge base of interchangeable parts (FE) and parts suppliers that we can all share.
Maybe we should start a sign-up campaign?
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A sign up campaign would be good, I know that I would absolutley hate to install a stock camshaft, or any cam that I didn't think was best suited to my application. Even if we all don't need a cam right at the moment, it would still be worth it to purchase a core or two---and in my case 4 or more. I have not seen an MEL in person yet, but looking at the pics, the size of the ports look like they could have a lot more potential than a stock cam.
Has anyone done any flow testing to see the intake to exhaust flow ratio? Like most Fords, I would anticipate that these engines can benefit from a little more exhaust duration, which would call for a dual pattern camshaft.
Another thought on the subject is even though most people with Lincolns and big Mercs wouldn't want a rumpity-rump camshaft, I think that the MEL would make a very interesting engine to install in a T-bucket---(a lot better choice than a Chevy 350 I might add). I think these people would want a lopey cam, which would make it good to have some blank cam cores ready to go.
Mark Piechowski
70 XR-7 460 AOD
69 SS 351c 2v AOD
70 XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Sunroof Eliminator 351w 4v FMX
78 Bronco Ranger XLT TS 351m C-6
78 F-150 Ranger Lariat 460 C-6
58 Park Lane Phaeton Coupe 430
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FORD MOTOR COMANY followed the AMA directive in 1957 and backed out of car racing and high performance in general. 1958 was a bleak year for FORD even with the introduction of the FE and MEL. MERCURY was late in introducing the SUPER MARAUDER package and with the materials I have studied was not offered with any type of stepped up camshaft.
The early MERC 430 carried large port/valve heads, that were subsequently downsized after 1958.
HOLMAN-MOODY carried FORD through 1959 with the 430 BIRD (NASCAR) and when FORD returned to racing in 1960, focused it's energy/money on the 352/360HP and STARLINER body. The MEL was relegated to hauling heavy LINCS/MERCS down the highways.
There was many aftermarket pieces released for the MEL, but was forgotten after the mid-sixties.
And yes, I think there would be a lot of interest in these powerplants in street rods and such. Just look how many people this board is drawing out of the woodwork wanting to know more. When I first started studying MEL, there was very little info out there.
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If you talk to Comp Cams, they'll tell you a completely different philosophy about how they see it on dual pattern cams. Same thing w. Racer Brown. They don’t manufacture dual patterns because they see no real advantage over the single pattern cams. The Comp man told me that the exhaust is already forced by the ex. stroke of the piston and don't need no further aid. It sounds simple but O.K to me. I couldn’t experience a real world performance difference between these two patterns myself; and I usually don’t dyno except on my desk top.
I think you’re right regarding the RV type cam. I personally would go for s.th. like appx.
270 ° dur. 210° @ 0.50” 0.50” Lift and 110° LSA either ways dual or single.
This one would be O.K too IMO
260 200 0.460 112
Just my 2 cents.
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This is a chart of most cam grinds for the FE during the sixties. The C6OZ 6250-B should be sufficient for above normal street duty (stock on 390GT and 428CJ) and has a very stable idle.
The choice for myself would be the C8AZ 6250-C. Put one in a '67 FAIRLANE GT 390 and really woke the thing up. Just a little noticeable rumble.
There are also 427 mechanical grinds listed for those not so faint of heart. The nice thing about a roller is you can stuff a lot more events into the cam without the objectionable rumble.
Anyways, I hope we can get enough people together to at least order the cores.
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With all respect, I think those cams are a bit out dated. What car are you going to put it in? Most MEL cars are pretty heavy with a hungry demand on low end torque. The C60 is O.K.IMHO but the other one C8AX would IMO not represent an ideal mate for a land yacht. The events are too stretched, the overlap to big and the lift too low. 2 1/2 ton cars can't get enough of that short duration, high lift cams that make up for some good low end torque and velocity.
It will probably be fine but not ideal I think. It all depends on where it goes in. BTW I think your idea writing a compatibility chart to the FE / MEL engine parts is a good idea. I don't have too much time these days. We have a section for that here. Let me know if I can be of assistance.
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I think we are once again loosing something in the translation Theo. The way I would use a MEL would be as a performance engine in a fairly light chassis. You seem to be concentrating on stock autos of the period. There are needs for upgrades for both.
The cams listed are still good for street useage and once presented to the grinder I'm sure will suggest updates for the events. I myself prefer hydraulic roller, but want something fairly close to the cam I suggested for my own personal use.
Of course, very few of these cams would be suitable for a '58 Premiere. We are talikg hot street here. Remember the '58 Super Marauder? Same chain of thought. You can have a fast heavy car.
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....that you're looking forward to build a light car. I have to admit that I'm a little focused on street performance. There are various reasons for that which are dictated by a mix of high gas prizes (1,50 $ per liter) and my own personal driving habits. Here's how I calculate my choice of parts. In Germany my personal driving habits are 95% normal stop and go traffic plus 5% Autobahn driving. So, 95% per cent of the time street performance means acceleration from stop light to stop light with occasionally harsh acceleration. That I can achieve best w. the sort of cam I mentioned above or even smaller. There is 5 % Autobahn left which works more than fine w. an even smaller cam in my 4250 lbs T-Bird. That translates into a max. speed of appx. 95 miles/hr. on the Autobahn all day long.
That is way faster than my brakes can take if it comes to a serious situation and way too fast for those lose leaf springed chassis. For my driving habits w. my street T-Bird this slightly bigger than stock cam w. a little more lift is more than sufficient. It wouldn't make sense to have a bigger cam since it would let go acceleration together with a 30 % increase in gas consumption 95% of the time. On the 5 % Autobahn the bigger cam wouldn't give me any advantage too because I have already reached the T-Birds natural speed limits which are dictated by the aerodynamics, its` chassis and its'brakes.
Although this reflects my own personal car and driving habits I could imagine that it won't be any different w. most other enthusiast except that I remember the U.S. traffic to be a lot slower and w. the fuzz being a lot stricter.
I think for most stock MEL cars the RV cam isn't a bad idea. In your case it's different. Let us know once you put your combo together
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"And yes, I think there would be a lot of interest in these powerplants in street rods and such. Just look how many people this board is drawing out of the woodwork wanting to know more. When I first started studying MEL, there was very little info out there."
Here is one big problem I found, this is a little irrelevant to this thread. When I go to this site on my own computer, I can just click on the link in "my favorite places". When I am at another computer it takes me a long time to find this forum. I tried Lincoln engines, Mercury 430 or 462 and 383 and Edsel, in a bunch of different senarios. I end up going through the FE engine site then clicking on "more auto fourms" then finding it somewhere down the list. I even copied and pasted the title of this forum into the search box in the Network54 home page and it did not come up in the search results. Does anyone know why this is? There may be more people out there with an interest that have not found this site yet. I don't know if it would be worth putting "Ford Mercury Lincoln Engines" somewhere in the title would help. I am not sure what to do about it, but I think it is a concern that should be looked into.
Mark Piechowski
(you know my cars by now)
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I understand they are coming out with 351C heads. Just a modern 4V intake would be something.
As for the search engine failure, maybe Theo has an answer. Just think of all the LINC-MERC-EDSEL-TBIRD owners out there that have no clue as to what is under the hood and how to go about repairing it.
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.....your appreciation to the MEL Forum. Thank you for participating.
The network54 listings were even a greater mess not long ago. When I started this forum I wasn’t able to register into their listing due to a bug in their system. It took a long time to get it straightened out it seems. I didn’t realize that the MEL forum had made it to their listing until I read your lines yesterday. It isn’t perfect but at least it is in finally.
I’ve taken a few actions to advertise the forum here and there soon after it was created. One of those actions was to sign in at addme.com or s.th. like that. It’s been a while ago, so please don’t ask me on details. They claim to put your address on hundreds of search engines for free. I signed in the MEL Forum but never went deeper into it since they got on my nerves w. their newsletters that are packed w. their add on top stuff, pro options and lots of other time consuming non relevant info to me.
There is a reason, why I didn’t put car brands like Lincoln, Mercury , etc. on the header I wanted to keep this site strictly MEL Engine only. If I had the car makes in the header, then I would most likely have the 385 series crowds in. The picture would probably look like 20 % 385 series engine posts 75% 385 series transmission, chassis and body themes and with a good portion of luck a whopping 5 % MEL post. There are already other good Forums that cover this perfectly.
It’s not that I dislike the 385 series themes, everybody is actually welcome here but I think it’s good to have a place like this one where you don’t have to spend your time reading your way through bunches of non MEL related messages until you get to what you wanted. This MEL Engine Forum in its’ current form fills the gap and therefore is unique I think.
However advertising is the key word here and there is definitely more to be done on this. My time is getting more limited as the days go by, so I’d highly appreciate to receive pointers, hints and tricks, ideas or whatever you the forum participants come up with. I’ll be glad to assist or implement your ideas that I might figure to be beneficial to the community and I would also entirely appreciate your help in various forms such as advertising for instance. I think this place definitely hit a gap and has the potential to grow with a little patience.
I tried to delete the “don’t post here” addition but for some weird reason the whole post goes crazy disturbing all the links. I’ll have to probably rewrite this section too.
At this point I’d like to encourage all of you to write your info into the various sections that we already have. Other sections can be added upon request and even extra pages like the engine project album can be created through my own site. I’ll have to see what kind of traffic is going to affect my domain bill, but that’s not an issue at the moment. Well I didn’t check my host yet, hmm.
Dependent on traffic and the grade of effort that might increase, sponsors can be a solution from a certain extend on. That wouldn’t be any pop ups but maybe a small logo in the footer for instance.
More of this kind of networking will have to follow. I will redesign the “Other cool links” link to make it more attractive to all those site owners who might be interested to advertise the MEL Forum on their pages.
On the long run this Forum will benefit from what I just started to learn in those classes I’m taking in sound and video design. Wouldn’t it be cool to have a small juke box on top and an own radio broadcast? Maybe some cool MEL related videos too? I’ll check out what’s possible but it will take its’ time.
BTW To make this place safer and more convenient for you I’ve implemented a script into the header and footer that keeps away the spam bots from collecting your e-mail addresses. They’ll run crazy and get stuck in nowhere land collecting just useless crap. The owners won’t even realize it for weeks if ever. If you feel to support the internet community in a positive way just go to this link http://www.xt-design.de/xt.php?site=stop-the-bot or simply klick this icon
Just paste and copy the script at the bottom of the page and insert it into your own pages’ HTML code. If you’re not running an own page, I think it would be good practise to recommend it to someone else.
You can leave out the second line if you don’t want the orange icon to be visible or linkable to the orig. inventors. That’s what I did for design reasons but will put an own link to them soon.
Thank you for your time and your great input ladies and gentlemen
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"Kultulz for instance said that he wanted to write some MEL/FE interchangeability chart if I understood it the right way. The place to put it in is already there if he wishes."
I am in no way an authority on the MEL by any means. I just pickup a little data here...someone's experience here and draw my own conclusions.
I need to actually assemble my own MEL before giving definitive advice. You are way ahead of me here Theo...
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.....that's not true.
It is not allways important having made own experience. Collecting data from here and there is a good and important way to get preparared.
You helped out a lot of people answering their questions in various forums. I wouldn't have had all these answeres and I still can't be of much help. I'm too busy with a lot of different stuff at the same time and I'm bad in keeping data. You seem to adore the MEL and you pick up all info you can get I think. That's great and I'm glad that we're having you around.
Keep up the good work
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I have had plenty of experience with FORD over the years, but always had a love for MERCURY for some reason. I think it might have been as a result of one of my grandfather's friends bringing a 57 or 58 TPKCRUISER by his house when I was visiting once and his leaving in a high rate of fuel consumption when he left. Of course my grandfather's comment was why do people go out and buy new cars just to tear them up.
I just want to find out how far I can take a MEL for a street engine. I think there is a lot of potential there that has been forgotten. The FE and 351W/C route is pretty tired and I cannot afford a cammer, so the 430 is it. But I hate to recommend something if I don't have first hand knowledge of it.
Like the FE bellhousing to a MEL. A buddy of mine and I did this years ago (1970) when we started stock car racing. After the changeover was completed, we read the rules and nothing larger than a 312 was allowed for that year body. It looked and ran good though...
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